89 Civic odd, intermittent starting issue…
Question:
I really think it is the contacts in the starter. The good news it is only about a $5 fix; at least here in TX. After you take the starter off, take off the three phillip screws on the back end of the solenoid. Once the cover is off there is a copper disk with a spring that will come out. There are two starter contacts are inside the solenoid housing. The one on the battery side is probably the one that is worn out. Replace both of them. I got mine at a local starter/alternator shop. Just be sure when you install the new ones, that they are "level." I consider starter contacts and alternator brushes as "preventative maintanance" because they are so easy and cheap to replace. Other than those two things, NipponDenso starters and alternators are bulletproof. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Howdies. >This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a >similar experience. >This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap >and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. >But every once in a while, here’s what happens: >I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine >check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click >like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. >Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go >out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) >and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. >So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have >no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been >sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. >Thanks in advance for any advice, >Tom >p.s. I posted because I didn’t want to do the typical "it needed that" >trouble-shooting with a mechanic. e.g., replace starter…same >problem…"well, it needed that anyway." replace ignition switch…same >problem…"well, it needed that anyway." On and on until problem is >stumbled upon…. That’s a nasty and $$$ game most mechanics seem to >play….
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thanks, but then what exactly is the click mentioned below for identifying when >the main relay is the problem? >"The engine will usually fire, run for a split second and then stall, as the >remaining fuel under pressure is used up. Continual cranking will only make the >situation worse, with the engine not firing at all in the end. When you turn the >ignition key to position II (ignition on) you should see the PGM-FI indicator on >the dash light up and extinguish. Exactly timed with this lamp, you should hear >a click and the fuel pump turn on and off. > That’s the contacts of the second relay in the Main Relay module > dropping out. It’s normal, it should do that. The sound comes from > behind the dash near the driver’s knee. >I re-read your web site and studied the electrical drawing the above site and >now wonder if technically the above paragraph is referring to a (barely >audible?) click from a relay’s contacts closing, not a solenoid. > Yes. The starter solenoid is more of a clack or clunk, much louder, > and it comes from the engine side of the firewall on the passenger > side. It occurs when you turn the key from ‘ignition on’ to ’start’. > Normally you’ll never hear it over the noise of the starter, it’s only > audible if the solenoid closes but the starter doesn’t turn. > It’s part of a ghastly serenade familiar to those of us who live in > northern climates. RRRRRURrrrurrurrr. ClackRRrrrrr…rurrur. > Clack..rurr Clack. Clack. Clack. "Shit! Get the booster cables!"
Thank you for explaining. This is very helpful.
Response:
>>I guess all I can do is start at the battery terminals and work >backwards tightening, cleaning, and looking for a flakey connection? > Yes. Also dirty contacts in the starter solenoid. See my post to > Caroline. Also worth a try is inward pressure on the key as you turn > to the start position. Sometimes the little fold-over prongs that hold > switches together get sprung a bit.
doesnt the civic of this era have a known issue with the ignition switch? he said when it does start, it starts quick and strong. IMO, a marginal wiring connection wouldnt do that. that does leave the starter/solenoid in the equation, tho. i would probably… check all terminal coneections/clean pull that ignition switch out and take it apart then id mess with the solenoid.
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>I guess all I can do is start at the battery terminals and work >backwards tightening, cleaning, and looking for a flakey connection?
Yes. Also dirty contacts in the starter solenoid. See my post to Caroline. Also worth a try is inward pressure on the key as you turn to the start position. Sometimes the little fold-over prongs that hold switches together get sprung a bit. Another poster suggests belaboring the starter with a wrench. This can jar the rotor a little bit and cause a worn out brush to make better connection. If the starter’s rotor has it’s shaft protruding from the housing you can sometimes turn it with similar results and less violence. If either of the latter techniques works, pull the starter and check for worn brushes, dirty comutator etc.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> If there’s not even a click from the starter solenoid, it’s >> likely in the chain that involves the starter switch, often a safety >> switch on the clutch or the park position of an automatic, the starter >> solenoid itself. >Are you saying that, upon starting a car, there should be clicks from the fuel >pump solenoid and a solenoid for the starter? > No, only the starter solenoid will produce an audible click from the > passenger side of the engine when you turn the key to ’start’. The > solenoid is essentially a big relay. If something in the chain from > the ignition switch’s ’start’ contacts is defective, the solenoid > doesn’t close and there’s no click. If there is a click but the engine > doesn’t turn over, it can be dirty contacts in the solenoid, a bad > spot on the starter motor commutator, or just bad battery connections.
snip good stuff for conciseness Thanks, but then what exactly is the click mentioned below for identifying when the main relay is the problem? "The engine will usually fire, run for a split second and then stall, as the remaining fuel under pressure is used up. Continual cranking will only make the situation worse, with the engine not firing at all in the end. When you turn the ignition key to position II (ignition on) you should see the PGM-FI indicator on the dash light up and extinguish. Exactly timed with this lamp, you should hear a click and the fuel pump turn on and off. If you do not hear a click and the fuel pump, then the main relay is likely to be at fault." http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm I re-read your web site and studied the electrical drawing the above site and now wonder if technically the above paragraph is referring to a (barely audible?) click from a relay’s contacts closing, not a solenoid. I just tried the above on my fully functioning 1991 Civic LX. I heard what I think is the fuel pump whirring and then going silent. I’m not sure about the click. (Didn’t want to repeat this too many times, out of concern for the electrical system in general.) Obviously I didn’t do this diagnostic when my main fuel relay failed in 1999. So many other symptoms matched that I correctly figured at the time it was the main fuel relay. Sorry to muddy up or sorta "hijack" the thread. Hopefully this will be it. Updates from the original poster are, as always, welcome.
Response:
>Thanks, but then what exactly is the click mentioned below for identifying when >the main relay is the problem? >"The engine will usually fire, run for a split second and then stall, as the >remaining fuel under pressure is used up. Continual cranking will only make the >situation worse, with the engine not firing at all in the end. When you turn the >ignition key to position II (ignition on) you should see the PGM-FI indicator on >the dash light up and extinguish. Exactly timed with this lamp, you should hear >a click and the fuel pump turn on and off.
That’s the contacts of the second relay in the Main Relay module dropping out. It’s normal, it should do that. The sound comes from behind the dash near the driver’s knee. >I re-read your web site and studied the electrical drawing the above site and >now wonder if technically the above paragraph is referring to a (barely >audible?) click from a relay’s contacts closing, not a solenoid.
Yes. The starter solenoid is more of a clack or clunk, much louder, and it comes from the engine side of the firewall on the passenger side. It occurs when you turn the key from ‘ignition on’ to ’start’. Normally you’ll never hear it over the noise of the starter, it’s only audible if the solenoid closes but the starter doesn’t turn. It’s part of a ghastly serenade familiar to those of us who live in northern climates. RRRRRURrrrurrurrr. ClackRRrrrrr…rurrur. Clack..rurr Clack. Clack. Clack. "Shit! Get the booster cables!" >I just tried the above on my fully functioning 1991 Civic LX. I heard what I >think is the fuel pump whirring and then going silent. I’m not sure about the >click. (Didn’t want to repeat this too many times, out of concern for the >electrical system in general.)
Won’t hurt it.
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Thanks for all the thoughts so far…. For clarity: –This is manual so no Parking switches…. –I’ve kinda checked the clutch switch: I can turn the key to on, then lightly push the clutch in and out and I can hear the clutch switch make a little "click" noise. Doesn’t mean it’s not a bad switch, but I can hear it working…. The really odd thing is the way it’s just now and then: Sometimes, it’s fine if it’s been sitting a few days, I’ll drive it 2 miles to the store, come out, and take 3 or 4 attempts at turning it on and off before it fires up. And it’s not a low battery issue; it’s a new battery and when it *does* crank, it cranks hard and fast and fires right up. So it’s like a loose connection or switch going bad thing someplace. I guess all I can do is start at the battery terminals and work backwards tightening, cleaning, and looking for a flakey connection? Thanks again, Tom
Response:
>> If there’s not even a click from the starter solenoid, it’s > likely in the chain that involves the starter switch, often a safety > switch on the clutch or the park position of an automatic, the starter > solenoid itself. >Are you saying that, upon starting a car, there should be clicks from the fuel >pump solenoid and a solenoid for the starter?
No, only the starter solenoid will produce an audible click from the passenger side of the engine when you turn the key to ’start’. The solenoid is essentially a big relay. If something in the chain from the ignition switch’s ’start’ contacts is defective, the solenoid doesn’t close and there’s no click. If there is a click but the engine doesn’t turn over, it can be dirty contacts in the solenoid, a bad spot on the starter motor commutator, or just bad battery connections. That’s where the headlights-on test comes in. If you turn the headlights on and get someone to watch them while you turn the engine over, it’s a handy diagnostic. If the headlights dim or go out, the starter is drawing current and you should look for bad battery connections, bad negative cable ground or a dud battery. If the lights stay bright, no current is being drawn by the starter, so it’s the solenoid contacts, a starter cummutator segment or something in that chain. Some starter solenoid contacts are made in the form of a sort of flat donut of copper that’s deliberately left free to rotate. The idea is that this way corrosion due to arcing is distributed over a larger area. Such contacts can develop bad spots where they won’t conduct, while they still have cleaner areas where they will. Thus they work usually, but occasionally won’t.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Howdies. >This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a >similar experience. >This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap >and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. >But every once in a while, here’s what happens: >I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine >check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click >like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. >Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go >out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) >and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. >So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have >no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been >sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. >Thanks in advance for any advice, >Tom
This happen to me ‘88 HB las year – turn the key to the ‘on’ position, and nothing happens in the ’start’ position. The very first thing I did was tighten the battery terminals – presto, the car is OK, it has been ever since.
Response:
>Does this happen especially in hot weather after driving awhile? >Ever had the main relay replaced? >Your car so far sounds like it’s got the classic symptoms.
Um, no, not really. The main relay can cause the engine to fail to fire, but it can’t be the cause of a failure to turn over on the starter. If there’s not even a click from the starter solenoid, it’s likely in the chain that involves the starter switch, often a safety switch on the clutch or the park position of an automatic, the starter solenoid itself.
Response:
Next time it happens, whack the starter with a rod or something substantial. If it starts on the next attempt, you probably answered your own question.. JT (Had a ‘76 Civic that I nursed that way for almost a year…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Howdies. > This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a > similar experience. > This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap > and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. > But every once in a while, here’s what happens: > I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine > check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click > like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. > Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go > out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) > and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. > So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have > no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been > sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. > Thanks in advance for any advice, > Tom > p.s. I posted because I didn’t want to do the typical "it needed that" > trouble-shooting with a mechanic. e.g., replace starter…same > problem…"well, it needed that anyway." replace ignition switch…same > problem…"well, it needed that anyway." On and on until problem is > stumbled upon…. That’s a nasty and $$$ game most mechanics seem to > play….
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Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Howdies. >This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a >similar experience. >This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap >and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. >But every once in a while, here’s what happens: >I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine >check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click >like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. >Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go >out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) >and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. >So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have >no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been >sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. >Thanks in advance for any advice, >Tom > This happen to me ‘88 HB las year – turn the key to the ‘on’ > position, and nothing happens in the ’start’ position. The > very first thing I did was tighten the battery terminals – presto, > the car is OK, it has been ever since.
Very true… One sometimes has to wonder how many starters and/or batteries have been sold due to lousy terminal connections.. — JT Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4
Response:
> >Does this happen especially in hot weather after driving awhile? >Ever had the main relay replaced? >Your car so far sounds like it’s got the classic symptoms. > Um, no, not really. The main relay can cause the engine to fail to > fire, but it can’t be the cause of a failure to turn over on the > starter.
I see I missed the fact that the original poster (Kahuna) said he could hear the fuel pump running and that this problem occurs in all seasons as well as when the car has been sitting awhile, etc. Both of these also suggest it’s not the main relay. > If there’s not even a click from the starter solenoid, it’s > likely in the chain that involves the starter switch, often a safety > switch on the clutch or the park position of an automatic, the starter > solenoid itself.
Are you saying that, upon starting a car, there should be clicks from the fuel pump solenoid and a solenoid for the starter? So hearing neither points to what you said? Thanks for the correction.
Response:
Howdies. This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a similar experience. This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. But every once in a while, here’s what happens: I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. Thanks in advance for any advice, Tom p.s. I posted because I didn’t want to do the typical "it needed that" trouble-shooting with a mechanic. e.g., replace starter…same problem…"well, it needed that anyway." replace ignition switch…same problem…"well, it needed that anyway." On and on until problem is stumbled upon…. That’s a nasty and $$$ game most mechanics seem to play….
Response:
Does this happen especially in hot weather after driving awhile? Ever had the main relay replaced? Your car so far sounds like it’s got the classic symptoms. On repair or replacement of the main relay: http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/MainRelay.HTM http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm This is a DIY job for the reasonably competent. My 91 Civic’s died in 1999. I replaced it myself, though many swear by re-soldering the old relay. This is a famous problem for circa 1990 Hondas.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howdies. > This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a > similar experience. > This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap > and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words. > But every once in a while, here’s what happens: > I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine > check light goes out, turn it to Start…nothing. No selenoid click > like in the old days on bad starters…just nothing. > Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go > out…then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up) > and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts. > So I’m thinking…starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have > no idea here…this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been > sitting for a few days or right after I’ve driven it a while. > Thanks in advance for any advice, > Tom > p.s. I posted because I didn’t want to do the typical "it needed that" > trouble-shooting with a mechanic. e.g., replace starter…same > problem…"well, it needed that anyway." replace ignition switch…same > problem…"well, it needed that anyway." On and on until problem is > stumbled upon…. That’s a nasty and $$$ game most mechanics seem to > play….
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