Why isn't Daimler Chrysler aggressively pursuing hybrid vehicles?
Question:
> > NiMH batteries suffer from memory effects over time as well. Not as > pronounced as the Ni-Cads, but it’s still there. Toyota got around > this by making the abttery pack massively overbuilt so that normal > driving only depletes it maybe 20-30%.
(The original post hasn’t shown up from my server yet, but I see it in Ted’s response – don’t know if it’s the whole post or snipped) The NiMH memory effect is as Joseph says – not nearly as pronounced as NiCad’s – I’d say by an order of magnitude – but not (as the marketing hype for NiMH claims) non-existent. What we’re calling the "memory effect" in both types is due to different chemistry phenomenon, but nevertheless, the effects are similar. The frustrating thing is that the chargers that most manufacturers make for the AA’s that many digicam users use (and that may even come packaged with the camera) do not have (1) full charge detection with automatic turn off or switchover to trickle mode, and (2) a discharge mode that drains most of the charge below which users or automatic cutoff on most digicams pull the batteries down to in order to "re-condition" the batteries. Lack of both these features will drastically cut short the useable life of an NiMH battery (both per-charge capacity as well as useable life) This memory effect in NiMH is subtle and comes on gradually – you simply notice that you just don’t get as many photos out of a charge as you used to. The effect of (almost) completely discharging them about every tenth typical (i.e., very incomplete) normal use charge/discharge cycle does wonders to keep them going long after many people assume they have lost their capacity and throw them away. Very similar to how your computer gets sluggish and then magically becomes crisp again after a defrag and anti-spyware scan. I have used NiMH’s for about 8 years now, and have never had one go bad. The key is using a charger like the MAHA MH-C204F (about $25) that has a manually initiated discharge mode, and using that mode every once in a while on the batteries. A good charger like that also has a temperature sensor and closes the loop on the charge current to get max. charge rate without damaging the batteries – typical charge time is 1-1/2 to 3 hours). I wonder if the chargers that are sold for or supplied with these cars is optimal, or if the consumer would have to "invest" a bunch more money to get a proper charger with discharge feature? That would be absolutely essential for good battery life if people are typically going to use only a portion of the capacity and top them off every night. Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x") —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->NiMH batteries suffer from memory effects over time as well. Not as >pronounced as the Ni-Cads, but it’s still there. Toyota got around >this by making the abttery pack massively overbuilt so that normal >driving only depletes it maybe 20-30%. > I don’t have a lot of experience with memory on NiMH but I do with > Nicads, and drawing a NiCad down by 20-30% is the best way there > is to get a really bad memory in it. In fact the healthiest situation with > a NiCad is occassional draws down to zero followed by an immediate > full recharge.
NiMH work the opposite. This is why they are great for the Prius, though it’s a lot of dead weight, IMO, for that longevity. > If it is dropped to zero and LEFT at zero for any length of time, it > will kill it almost immediately.
NiMH don’t suffer from this, though it does hurt them, like any battery. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Absolutely! When an engine is designed to run at a set speed you > can do all kinds of energy efficient things, such as tuning the intake > and exhaust ports. But of course, you can’t get neck-snapping > accelleration out of such a setup, that’s probably why they went > with the design they are using.
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| | > Has _anyone_ heard what one should expect to pay for battery replacement over | > the life of the vehicle? I haven’t. Seems to be BS (Big Secret). | | Or not, since the batteries in most modern hybrids are engineered to last | the typical life of the vehicle. For example, the Toyota Prius’ pack is | rated to last about 150,000 miles before it needs replacement. Sure they will. I’ll let others test it first. :-)
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> NiMH batteries suffer from memory effects over time as well. Not as > pronounced as the Ni-Cads, but it’s still there. Toyota got around > this by making the abttery pack massively overbuilt so that normal > driving only depletes it maybe 20-30%.
I don’t have a lot of experience with memory on NiMH but I do with Nicads, and drawing a NiCad down by 20-30% is the best way there is to get a really bad memory in it. In fact the healthiest situation with a NiCad is occassional draws down to zero followed by an immediate full recharge. > If the pack is regularly dropped below 50% charge, you’ll be lucky to > get 3-4 years out of it. If it’s dropped to zero more than a couple > of dozen times, maybe a year after that.
If it is dropped to zero and LEFT at zero for any length of time, it will kill it almost immediately. > Me? I’d use capacitors and leave the engine running all the time, > but at a fixed speed. A turbo-diesel would be perfect for this > as they love to run at a constant speed. Variations in power > requirements would be handled by the capacitors and transmission.
Absolutely! When an engine is designed to run at a set speed you can do all kinds of energy efficient things, such as tuning the intake and exhaust ports. But of course, you can’t get neck-snapping accelleration out of such a setup, that’s probably why they went with the design they are using. Ted
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> Almost certainly, whatever the lifespan that the automakers claim the > batteries > are going to last, you can halve it. And unless all the automakers get > together now > and standardize on a single battery style used in these things, battery > replacements > are going to remain Dealer Only parts. > Ted > You and I would try to figure out how to put Optimas in, eh Ted? 8^)
They would be a darn sight safer than 20 gallons of sulfuric acid that conventional batteries would represent, methinks. Unfortunately, they would undoubtedly be heavier and consume more space than the originals. The charging circuit would certainly have to be altered, I’m sure. Ted
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> Has _anyone_ heard what one should expect to pay for battery replacement over > the life of the vehicle? I haven’t. Seems to be BS (Big Secret). > Or not, since the batteries in most modern hybrids are engineered to last > the typical life of the vehicle. For example, the Toyota Prius’ pack is > rated to last about 150,000 miles before it needs replacement.
Hate to burst your bubble but the Toyota Prius uses Sealed Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) batteries, same batteries as used in most new cell phones and laptops. And while these batteries have proven better than the Ni-Cad batteries they replaced, (because they do not have a memory the way NiCad batteries do) they still wear out. In fact, rechargable NiMH batteries in the double & triple A, and C and D form factors have recently appeared on supermarket shelves and other locations that batteries are sold, along with the computer-controlled battery chargers that are required to properly recharge them. I’d urge anyone thinking about getting a Hybrid car to buy a bunch of these batteries and use them in their flashlights, kids toys, etc. for at least a couple years. Your going to find out that while they do last longer than NiCads, that they are not miracle batteries. Undoubtedly the wise guys at Toyota probably arrived at this figure by estimating 20K miles a year, thus 7 1/2 years of time. A top of the line lead acid car battery will last that in normal usage. A NiHM that is under computer control of the discharge and recharge cycle will most likely last that too. But there’s going to be a fall-off of battery capacity just as in a lead-acid battery. But a 15 year old Toyota Prius with 120,000 miles on it is almost certainly going to have had it’s battery(s) changed out. Truth is that with the way that the Hybrids use power, from a reliability standpoint they might have been better off with a bank of Leyden jars or fat charge-capacitors. These devices store electrical energy directly via opposing-charged plates, and are much more efficient at it than the battery way of converting the electricity to chemical energy then back to electricity when you need it. Of course, a crash could be quite exciting if a conductor fell across the terminals as these devices can dump ALL their energy across a conductor almost instantly, a 1 inch solid bar would probably explode into molten steel. But these devices do not wear out like a battery does. Vehicle battery life is dependent on a lot of uncontrollable factors. For starters, vibration, and temperature changes and temperature amounts have the biggest variable effect. If the charging circuit FUBARS and overcharges the batteries then they are gonna be toasted. While a sealed Ni-HM isn’t as mechanically fragile as a lead-acid battery, it still has plates that corrode over time. Ted
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> Vehicle battery life is dependent on a lot of uncontrollable factors. For > starters, > vibration, and temperature changes and temperature amounts have the > biggest variable effect. If the charging circuit FUBARS and overcharges > the batteries then they are gonna be toasted. While a sealed Ni-HM isn’t > as mechanically fragile as a lead-acid battery, it still has plates that > corrode > over time.
NiMH batteries suffer from memory effects over time as well. Not as pronounced as the Ni-Cads, but it’s still there. Toyota got around this by making the abttery pack massively overbuilt so that normal driving only depletes it maybe 20-30%. If the pack is regularly dropped below 50% charge, you’ll be lucky to get 3-4 years out of it. If it’s dropped to zero more than a couple of dozen times, maybe a year after that. Of course, the problem with Toyota’s system is that they have 60-80% of the battery as dead weight and insurance to give the long lifespan. A proper designed hybrid would only need 2-4 batteries that you’d sweap out every other year. It would be 300-500lbs lighter as well. Me? I’d use capacitors and leave the engine running all the time, but at a fixed speed. A turbo-diesel would be perfect for this as they love to run at a constant speed. Variations in power requirements would be handled by the capacitors and transmission. Such a design in, say, a modified Echo would net upwards of 80mpg. VW’s Polo gets 65-70mpg average with a TDI engine, so 10-15mpg more for a hybrid Polo or simmialr small car isn’t unreasonable.
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> Has _anyone_ heard what one should expect to pay for battery replacement over > the life of the vehicle? I haven’t. Seems to be BS (Big Secret).
Or not, since the batteries in most modern hybrids are engineered to last the typical life of the vehicle. For example, the Toyota Prius’ pack is rated to last about 150,000 miles before it needs replacement. — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan To e-mail, remove NOSPAM and transpose CAST and NET
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| > | > > | > > | The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain | > > | application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT | > > | Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly | > > | from hybrid tehnology | > > | > > I’m waiting to see how many thousands it will cost over the life of a ULEV | > > vehicle to replace the battery packs when they die…and how long they | > last | > > between replacements. No one is talking about that!! Hmmm… I bet | > they’ll | > > need replacing every 3-5 years and if a cell phone replacement battery is | > $50+, | > > the replacement batteries for a ULEV vehicle is going to be hundreds, if | > not | > > thousands! No thanks!!! | > > | > | > Almost certainly, whatever the lifespan that the automakers claim the | > batteries | > are going to last, you can halve it. And unless all the automakers get | > together now | > and standardize on a single battery style used in these things, battery | > replacements | > are going to remain Dealer Only parts. | > | > Ted | | You and I would try to figure out how to put Optimas in, eh Ted? 8^) | Has _anyone_ heard what one should expect to pay for battery replacement over the life of the vehicle? I haven’t. Seems to be BS (Big Secret).
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’m suspicious of CU’s figures, especially the low city rating. Given that >>the Prius can be driven on electric power only in most city driving >>situations (with the engine starting up as needed to recharge the battery >>pack), city fuel efficiency should equal or exceed highway efficiency. >Real-world testing puts the Prius at about 40mpg combined, the Civic >Hybrid at about 41-42mpg, and The VW TDI at about 42-43Mpg. >Everything else is in the low 30s – at least what’s sold in the U.S. >The Polo in Europe has a smaller TDI engine and gets roughly 70mpg. >Honda sells a modified ~80HP Civic in Japan geared for extreme >economy as opposed to the U.S. "sporty" version. 75mpg. This >car was originally sold nearly ten years ago, btw. Not new >technology. > CivicVX , about 1990, 60-65MPG (canadian) on the highway with 430,000 > KM on it. Belongs to a friend who drove back and forth from Toronto to > Kitchener every day for about 6 years with it.
That was the U.S. version. They made a version of the VX with higher pressure tires, an underbody cover for aerodynamics, and a few other modifications. The big deal, though, was the purpose-built high mileage engine. Only sold in Australia and Japan. Not importable to the U.S. due to very nigh NoX ratings – the engine has very high compression values.(20:1!) http://asia.vtec.net/article/EK3Vi/ Shame, really. Slick peice of technology that whomps on the Prius. They made a version of this car with even more refinements to maximize efficiency. The VW Lupo gets between 78 and 90mpg. The Smart gets 60mpg+ with the smaller engine. A true hybrid using one of these designs would easily top 100mpg, but there’s little incentive to make one with gas so cheap.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> | The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain > | application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT > | Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly > | from hybrid tehnology > I’m waiting to see how many thousands it will cost over the life of a ULEV > vehicle to replace the battery packs when they die…and how long they > last > between replacements. No one is talking about that!! Hmmm… I bet > they’ll > need replacing every 3-5 years and if a cell phone replacement battery is > $50+, > the replacement batteries for a ULEV vehicle is going to be hundreds, if > not > thousands! No thanks!!! > Almost certainly, whatever the lifespan that the automakers claim the > batteries > are going to last, you can halve it. And unless all the automakers get > together now > and standardize on a single battery style used in these things, battery > replacements > are going to remain Dealer Only parts. > Ted
You and I would try to figure out how to put Optimas in, eh Ted? 8^) Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x") —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Perhaps, but you don’t mention how well the Civic Hybrid and VW’s TDIs did > in the "artifical testing": > Toyota Prius — City 60 MPG / Hwy 51 MPG / Combined 55 MPG > Honda Civic Hybrid — City 47 MPG / Hwy 48 MPG / Combined 47 MPG > Volkswagen Golf TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG > Volkswagen Jetta TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG > The Hybrids are too high and the TDI is close to reality. I think > maybe the tests are being too generous with the hybrids and may > need to be altered a bit. > Given the combined EPA figures and the "real world" figures you mention > above, you seem to suggest that the TDIs perform *better* in "real world" > conditions than the hybrids, when there doesn’t seem to be any clear > evidence, anectodal or otherwise, to support that claim, AFAICT. > http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~johnf/rechtin.html > This explains why the test is garbage.
Thanks for the reference. It explains why the Prius got so high a city rating, given the methodology used in the city test. Now I’m inclined to agree with you that the EPA city test has to be revised. I don’t think it should be changed so much as to accommodate hybrids as to more accurately reflect real world conditions. The real question is, what *would* constitute "real world conditions"? Not everyone drives the same way, you know…. 
> I respectfully disagree. The basic technology behind the Prius’ hybird > drivetrain has been in commercial production for the past seven years. To > suggest that the Prius was "purpose-built" to "cheat" on the EPA city test > is a rather provocative assertion. Care to back this claim up? > 20mph average city speed in the test is ubsurd. Yet that’s purely > electric mode. 20mph will get you run over today.
Very true. Even in city driving in Indianapolis, the speeds are more like 25 and 30mph. It’s 35 out in the suburbs where I live. > Increase it to 30mph like normal and the engine kicks in.
For the Honda hybrids and the older Prius, perhaps, but not for the 2004 model, if what I’ve read of owner experiences are any indication. Toyota has apparently re-engineered the ‘04 Prius so that it drops out of EV mode if the speed exceeds 42mph (or if the drive battery’s charge level drops below 30% of maximum). — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan To e-mail, remove NOSPAM and transpose CAST and NET
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> I’m suspicious of CU’s figures, especially the low city rating. Given that > the Prius can be driven on electric power only in most city driving > situations (with the engine starting up as needed to recharge the battery > pack), city fuel efficiency should equal or exceed highway efficiency.
Real-world testing puts the Prius at about 40mpg combined, the Civic Hybrid at about 41-42mpg, and The VW TDI at about 42-43Mpg. Everything else is in the low 30s – at least what’s sold in the U.S. The Polo in Europe has a smaller TDI engine and gets roughly 70mpg. Honda sells a modified ~80HP Civic in Japan geared for extreme economy as opposed to the U.S. "sporty" version. 75mpg. This car was originally sold nearly ten years ago, btw. Not new technology. New Buick Lesabre: 21 city/28 highway(govt figures) real tested mpg: 14 city 32 highway. It seems as if the artificial testing is completely wrong. The Prius obviously was purpose-built to do well on the city test so as to "cheat" and get a 60mpg figure, which is nothing close to the 40mpg reality.
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| The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain | application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT | Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly | from hybrid tehnology I’m waiting to see how many thousands it will cost over the life of a ULEV vehicle to replace the battery packs when they die…and how long they last between replacements. No one is talking about that!! Hmmm… I bet they’ll need replacing every 3-5 years and if a cell phone replacement battery is $50+, the replacement batteries for a ULEV vehicle is going to be hundreds, if not thousands! No thanks!!!
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> Real-world testing puts the Prius at about 40mpg combined, the Civic > Hybrid at about 41-42mpg, and The VW TDI at about 42-43Mpg.
Fair enough. EPA figures aren’t intended to be representative of fuel efficiency under "real world" conditions; as the saying goes, your mileage may vary. > It seems as if the artificial testing is completely wrong.
Perhaps, but you don’t mention how well the Civic Hybrid and VW’s TDIs did in the "artifical testing": Toyota Prius — City 60 MPG / Hwy 51 MPG / Combined 55 MPG Honda Civic Hybrid — City 47 MPG / Hwy 48 MPG / Combined 47 MPG Volkswagen Golf TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG Volkswagen Jetta TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG (These are the EPA’s published figures. All of the above vehicles are 2004 models. I’ve listed two VWs here because VW offers more than one model with the TDI engine technology.) Given the combined EPA figures and the "real world" figures you mention above, you seem to suggest that the TDIs perform *better* in "real world" conditions than the hybrids, when there doesn’t seem to be any clear evidence, anectodal or otherwise, to support that claim, AFAICT. > The Prius obviously was purpose-built to do well on the city test > so as to "cheat" and get a 60mpg figure [...].
I respectfully disagree. The basic technology behind the Prius’ hybird drivetrain has been in commercial production for the past seven years. To suggest that the Prius was "purpose-built" to "cheat" on the EPA city test is a rather provocative assertion. Care to back this claim up? — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan To e-mail, remove NOSPAM and transpose CAST and NET
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m suspicious of CU’s figures, especially the low city rating. Given that > the Prius can be driven on electric power only in most city driving > situations (with the engine starting up as needed to recharge the battery > pack), city fuel efficiency should equal or exceed highway efficiency. >Real-world testing puts the Prius at about 40mpg combined, the Civic >Hybrid at about 41-42mpg, and The VW TDI at about 42-43Mpg. >Everything else is in the low 30s – at least what’s sold in the U.S. >The Polo in Europe has a smaller TDI engine and gets roughly 70mpg. >Honda sells a modified ~80HP Civic in Japan geared for extreme >economy as opposed to the U.S. "sporty" version. 75mpg. This >car was originally sold nearly ten years ago, btw. Not new >technology.
CivicVX , about 1990, 60-65MPG (canadian) on the highway with 430,000 KM on it. Belongs to a friend who drove back and forth from Toronto to Kitchener every day for about 6 years with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->New Buick Lesabre: >21 city/28 highway(govt figures) >real tested mpg: 14 city 32 highway. >It seems as if the artificial testing is completely wrong. The >Prius obviously was purpose-built to do well on the city test >so as to "cheat" and get a 60mpg figure, which is nothing close >to the 40mpg reality.
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> Perhaps, but you don’t mention how well the Civic Hybrid and VW’s TDIs did > in the "artifical testing": > Toyota Prius — City 60 MPG / Hwy 51 MPG / Combined 55 MPG > Honda Civic Hybrid — City 47 MPG / Hwy 48 MPG / Combined 47 MPG > Volkswagen Golf TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG > Volkswagen Jetta TDI — City 32 MPG / Hwy 43 MPG / Combined 36 MPG
The Hybrids are too high and the TDI is close to reality. I think maybe the tests are being too generous with the hybrids and may need to be altered a bit. > Given the combined EPA figures and the "real world" figures you mention > above, you seem to suggest that the TDIs perform *better* in "real world" > conditions than the hybrids, when there doesn’t seem to be any clear > evidence, anectodal or otherwise, to support that claim, AFAICT.
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~johnf/rechtin.html This explains why the test is garbage. > I respectfully disagree. The basic technology behind the Prius’ hybird > drivetrain has been in commercial production for the past seven years. To > suggest that the Prius was "purpose-built" to "cheat" on the EPA city test > is a rather provocative assertion. Care to back this claim up?
20mph average city speed in the test is ubsurd. Yet that’s purely electric mode. 20mph will get you run over today. Increase it to 30mph like normal and the engine kicks in.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > | The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain > | application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT > | Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly > | from hybrid tehnology > I’m waiting to see how many thousands it will cost over the life of a ULEV > vehicle to replace the battery packs when they die…and how long they last > between replacements. No one is talking about that!! Hmmm… I bet they’ll > need replacing every 3-5 years and if a cell phone replacement battery is $50+, > the replacement batteries for a ULEV vehicle is going to be hundreds, if not > thousands! No thanks!!!
Almost certainly, whatever the lifespan that the automakers claim the batteries are going to last, you can halve it. And unless all the automakers get together now and standardize on a single battery style used in these things, battery replacements are going to remain Dealer Only parts. Ted
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The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly from hybrid tehnology
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> The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain > application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT > Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly > from hybrid tehnology
Would YOU buy one? Consider this: Expect a Higher Price Tag The hybrid cars currently on the market cost from $3500 to $6000 more per car than comparable cars with conventional gas engines. This means that the amount of money you save, or don’t save, by buying a hybrid is very much dependent on gasoline prices. If gas is priced at $1.80 per gallon, it could take the average driver (15,000 miles per year) between 10 and 15 years to amortize the $3500 increase in the initial price. However, the higher gas prices go, the less time it takes to recoup the higher price tag. http://www.ineed2know.org/hybrid_cars.htm
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On the Today Show this morning, Ford said their hybrid SUV would cost "a couple thousand" more than its traditional counterpart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Would YOU buy one? Consider this: > Expect a Higher Price Tag >The hybrid cars currently on the market cost from $3500 to $6000 more
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Uh, maybe. The Toyota Prius is about as far out there as you can get in terms of a hybrid right now with extremely aerodynamics. It gets 35 mpg city and 50 mpg highway. (Consumer Reports says so.) That’s certainly very good, but there have been cars with much worse aerodynamics that got better highway numbers (VW diesels come to mind and I think some Honda Civic gas-only models did, too.) and the city number is not all that much better than some straight gas models get. You have to also remember that EVERYONE in the car business says that Toyota is losing a couple grand on each Prius they sell. — – GRL "It’s good to want things." Steve Barr (philosopher, poet, humorist, chemist, Visual Basic programmer)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Dodge Ram pickup is a good start for hybrid drivetrain > application, but more vehicles need to be hybrids. The Neon, PT > Cruiser, all minivans, and all Jeep products would benefit greatly > from hybrid tehnology
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> Uh, maybe. The Toyota Prius is about as far out there as you can get in > terms of a hybrid right now with extremely aerodynamics. It gets 35 mpg city > and 50 mpg highway. (Consumer Reports says so.)
I’m suspicious of CU’s figures, especially the low city rating. Given that the Prius can be driven on electric power only in most city driving situations (with the engine starting up as needed to recharge the battery pack), city fuel efficiency should equal or exceed highway efficiency. > That’s certainly very good, > but there have been cars with much worse aerodynamics that got better > highway numbers (VW diesels come to mind and I think some Honda Civic > gas-only models did, too.)
Prius partisans would likely tell you that VW diesels have dirtier emmissions than the SULEV-rated Prius, and that the Civic ICE models aren’t that much more efficient. (The Civic Hybrid’s numbers aren’t that much better than the Prius’, for that matter, either.) > and the city number is not all that much better > than some straight gas models get.
It’s certainly better than my ‘98 Neon, which has been averaging 32 MPG — in *highway* driving. > You have to also remember that EVERYONE in the car business says that Toyota > is losing a couple grand on each Prius they sell.
Source, please? I’ve read articles that indicate that Toyota has made a profit on each Prius they’ve sold for the past year. — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan To e-mail, remove NOSPAM and transpose CAST and NET
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Ford says that their new hybrid gets better city fuel economy than highway. It seems like that is a big advantage of hybrids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->the Prius can be driven on electric power only in most city driving >situations (with the engine starting up as needed to recharge the battery >pack), city fuel efficiency should equal or exceed highway efficiency.
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